You have freedom to do what you like. In your private space. TAMI is not your private space, mr.Test.
fine. you are ok with Ronen’s scheme.
but I am not ok with it, sorry.
It’s your opinion, and you can hold onto it. I feel like there’s more value to a “concept” of privacy in TAMI, than to machinery, which costs money, and time of people who take care that things keep working, and that for me costs a helluva lot more than a “concept” of privacy you’re trying to promote, which is not real privacy in my opinion.
This is a very narrow minded view of privacy. Taken to its extreme, do you automatically consent to be strip searched every time you visit TAMI? Of course not.
TAMI is an organisation run by its members, and as such the members as a collective get to decide the privacy expectations within TAMI. I’ve certainly done things in TAMI I wouldn’t want streamed all over the internet, for example. That’s my personal choice, and knowing the only camera was the crazily obsfercated space cam influenced how comfortable I was spending time there.
You might be totally comfortable being watched by millions 24 / 7 - that doesn’t mean everybody is.
nice, we are humming
This is a huge gap you’re jumping, from security footage to something that even police needs your concent. (strip searches)
As a community, we decided several times that it is necessary to install a security camera, but a vocal minority in TAMI, which has paramount concerns about their privacy ruled this option out, every time it was proposed. Moreover, every new member is surprised by the lack of cameras in the hackerspace. So I hope that a majority will decide what to do on this case, not principle of a couple of people.
classic steve mann sketch
What if the conditions for decrypting the footage are defined, and the quorum need to agree that they have been met?
Also, I don’t think we should hold footage for more than a week.
You have to understand that there is a real problem of TAMI abuse we are trying to solve. @id3m has already stopped participating in the Guaranteed to be Open program in protest of not having a member acceptance procedure approved last TAMI member meeting.
TAMI need to attract enough people in order to be financially viable, more people means the balance between maintainers of the place and its equipment vs. the abusers of TAMI is disrupted. We already know that money was stolen from the donation box, equipment was stolen, or broken due to miss-use or abuse.
Do you have an alternative solution to the problem? I understand that even this weaken type of surveillance is evil, but it’s about choosing the lesser evil.
I’m not against cameras i’m just not sure it’s the right solution for the specific problems described.
Since TAMI attracts a lot of new visitors, i think that even if you have a footage of a theft or vandalism, you won’t have much to do with it as most chances are that no one know who that person is and the police probably won’t do anything.
So here’s a list of solutions I could think of:
- Regarding the donations box - use a more secured location and box.
- Regarding damaged equipment - maintaining a list of the equipment and usability status by dates.
- Member and visitor log so in case of damage we can tell who was present at TAMI when such damage has occurred (I think this point will also benefit us on a marketing perspective as it will enable us to get some data regarding visitors frequency).
- Theft of equipment - I assume at least part of the theft is actually the case of loaning equipment that users forget to return - maintain equipment loaning list (together with the equipment list mentioned above).
I’m well aware of the overhead that these steps might take, I think they might be more effective than using surveillance cameras in case they will be installed.
This notion is concerning me. It is almost like the decision of the US court that corporations are people too (in the eyes of the law).
Let me be clear: TAMI is here for it’s members. I take quite the opposite view from your statement above: Things that happen in TAMI should be agreed upon by all of it’s members (consensus should be reached), either by avoiding a coordinated decision (i.e. doacracy), or in the extreme cases where that is not possible, by majority (i.e. by overrulling a bunch of otherwise awesome TAMI members).
Safety: of course we care about the safety. We ask that people be thought to use the dangerous equipment.
Setting TAMI’s relationship with privacy aside, I agree with Ronen there is a real problem to solve here - by real I mean something which is hurting TAMI both financially and socially. As I see it ours is a social problem, and while instinct is to throw tech at our problems it seems to me that cameras will only introduce new technical problems without helping the core issue much.
I’d like to suggest the following ~simple change to how we welcome visitors to TAMI: introducing the TAMI-hack-master (THM) role, whomever opens the place basically. The THM should collect some form of deposit from visitors, ID, rav-kav, etc and place them in a member-unlockable clear box. Upon leaving, visitors collect their deposit after demonstrating that their workspace is not a complete mess, along the way perhaps let the THM know what they’ve been hacking on, and politely routed through the closest donation box or TAMI-like-button. The THM also makes sure first time visitors get a TAMI intro talk.
Ideally the THM shall dawn some visual marker to encourage anyone to approach him regarding anything - a feathery cap, a tiger tooth necklace or an inflatable apparatus of any kind. Need to leave? no problem, simply pass ‘it’ to another member. The downside is the additional headache & productivity hit the THM takes, but the upside is a getting better acquainted with TAMI users, and hopefully a decline in abuse cases. Implementing it will require use to rehash the TAMI member list, replace the front door lock, etc.
Adopting a THM role will obviously not prevent all possible abuse scenarios, and it does take us slightly away from a core idea upon which TAMI has stood on - the free-walk-in-out ideal, but I think it at least turns our problem into something which generates contact between members, which is a good thing.
This is exactly why I stopped doing my GTBO. I don’t want to explain TAMI safety/ideology things to people who just want to see the place, or who have much more to contribute potentially. I feel very uncomfortable in position where I should ask for their documents/ID or even mandate a donation after a session.
If you think that policy described above is less “privacy intrusive” than a camera, I really cannot say much.
This is a really asking people for their personal belongings, are you okay?
I will think about all the alternatives, I am not dismissing anyone’s concerns. You should be specific, however, about precisely what problem you are attempting to solve. If bad stuff is happening right in front of a space full of members and they don’t care, then how is some sort of remote surveillance system going to make it any better?
See cctv in the uk.
There is cctv footage of people having sex in the srteets at the night at some back yards of buildings, parking lots and so on.
Who cares? The watchman gets free reality porn.
Imagine 24.7 video and a laptop got stolen from a pile of laptops on the shelves. After one week someone notices the loss. Have fun going through the video.
I had lived in a small detached old house near munich with my kids and someone threw large ammounts of garbage in our garden as he hated our family.
We had.two cams monitoring the entrance to the lot and a good piece of the garden. Very nice to prove the parcel service did not ring with the parcel but just placed a card into the letterbox to collect the parcel from the post.
Here after one hour of winding around, we saw maybe 8 frames of a noisy back of a head at the edge of a video stream and the garbage was thrown from the side into the garden without sight of the cams.
Other incident, a bakery shop was entered by night by burglers and we looked through our entrance videos, an we saw a noisy head that saw the infrared lights that illuminated the garden and he saw the big chinese video cams (interesting design, 2 cams in one: color cam for day and bw cam without any filters for night with iIR lighting so it was quite sensitive at night, but only pal video with bt878 framegrabber in a pc based appliance). The head saw the cams with redish ir lights nearby in the garden where two old cars stood and the head decided not to enter the lot.
We could not give anything useful to the police but a time in the night plus minus 10 minutes as the ntp server deamon of the router firewall in the dmz did not work…
Video does not help, unless.you have shomrim watching them live and beeing able to come to the scene quickly.
Take a luggage trolly with an empty cardbord box and leave it at ben gurion and count the time for the.box to be removed and you be found.
It is a social problem that needs a social solution.
How is your house secured?
Your family brings only people they know.A small network of trust.
So tami shall be a net of trust. People should bring preferably people they know to tami and introduce them to others.
So alien guests should be watched with silent care as it is not nice to show distrust openly to new people but it is wise to have an eye on them until they leave, and to see if they try to gather intelligence or to place objects (e.g. drugs, electronic or live bugs) into tami.
Nobody takes a heavy machine but an expensive eval board with dsp and high speed adc could be missing quite quickly as one could think it was lost by someone unknown who does not like to play with it anymore.
So people could also think that an item on a table is public at it had not been moved and someone else put it on the shelves as it was misplaced and so on.
Also a social communication problem of inproper laveling and order.
Have a cam to monitor the soldering table - oh 3 weeks before someone took my arduino and soldered 4 resistors to it, get a life and dont watch porn of people soldering small boards.
So I suggest finding a social solution based an the web of trust approach.
The problem that our family apparently has a couple of less nice drunk cousins, who enter your house at night and take your spoons, so you start putting locks on all the kitchen drawers, and it starts to annoy your mother in law.
Surveillance footage will show us what happened and we can learn from that.
You are missing an important point, which I think @id3m makes well: people already know exactly what is happening, because it happens right in front of their faces (let’s say 99% of the time), and not only don’t they care, they invite the drunk cousins over for another drink the next night.
I fail to see what surveillance is supposed to fix about this situation.
A lot of times these people aren’t invited per se, but they know that TAMI is free and open place, and they abuse our good intent, and as our Telegram conversation shows, it is really going to take police and governmental structures to take care of one such guy, which is ridiculous in my opinion.
Not all of these cases can be so black an white though. What if equipment got stolen/ruined while 2 people were there (one of them a drunk cousin, and one of them is their friend) ? They are going to cover each other ass, and make us look stupid, no matter how truthful your story is. Also, we will be able to know who of TAMI members neglects TAMI by letting these people act as they do, not in a bad way. I think boundaries should be set.
Of all topics on the agenda of the meeting tonight, this should be the priority.
Formalizing the responsibilities of key holders where it is discussed in detail
Again the bandsaw blade broken in 3 days after maintenance.
I’m taking measures.